“Keep quoting the bible, Daniel. It’s easier than making logical arguments.”

How would you know? You haven’t tried either yet.

“Your persecution complex is revealing. Did anyone say you’re not allowed to complain about crime? Think a little, Daniel. This web site isn’t some public square where you have full 1A freedom of speech rights; this is a personal blog where I don’t have to allow anyone to say anything. Yet even though I disagree with almost everything you say, I’m not stopping you from complaining, am I?”

I see, I can complain all I want, but it is silly doing so unless there is a SEAL team and drones after me. Unless I am “cowering behind cover because of all the gunfire on the street” (in fact, I probably should be doing that right now with all those wife-killers and killer-killers at large, you know), I am to pretend American violence statistics are not shocking. By the same token, why do you need car insurance ? Has your car ever spontaneously combusted when you were behind the steering wheel? Are you covering behind cover because of those Christine-like cars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_(novel))? Are you chicken?

“You have no ability whatsoever to argue logically. Your attempt to paint my comments as blaming rape victims for being raped are pathetic”

Well, I am told American violence statistics are great, thanks (from a “voluntary society point of view”, according to a fellow traveler of yours-yep, I can’t see anthing more voluntary than being raped and/or being murdered…). Yet, we lead the developed world in homicides and rapes. Which “violent” crimes are those in UK (example provided by your fellow traveler) are troubling the guns crowd? Bad cooking and poor dental hygiene? I am told countries with strict guns legislation are violent hellholes compared to this little NRA paradise of ours. If not homicide and rape,what are we talking about? Jaywalking and badmouthing? Again, if not the almost infinite supply of tools of death, why America is the outlier among all rich countries? Is Obama? Is the water? And you must be fair to me, after you creatively solved the homicides issue attributing it to people letting themselves to be killed for the sake of their lifestyles, I thought you would solve the second problem (rapes statistics) thus.

” I’m not saying the deaths of criminals distort our crime stats. I’m saying many murder victims are criminals who died as a result of their lifestyles, not innocent people.”

Among the wives and criminals of this world of ours, American ones are the only ones with Walt-Disney-lemming-like self-preservation instinct. How convenient, they got an infinite supply of firearms to help them being killed (I am not sure it is wise to make guns readily avaiable in a country where husbands allegedly have a penchant for killing their better halves). By the way, you keep dodging this issue, why not bazzokas and tactical nuclear weapons? They are every bit as “arms” as the Colts, M16s and Kalashnikovs our Founding Fathers also hadn’t in mind because they didn’t exist back then.

“We lose about 30,000 people per year to gun violence. About 20,000 are suicides, which in general are no danger to the public. Of the remaining 10,000, a large percentage are either targeted domestic violence murders or criminals being killed by criminals.”

You are just restating (at the same time you pretend you are not) the same (false) thesis: American awful violence statistics are due clumsy criminals and clueless wives. We have every year about 3.2 firearm homicides per 100 000 inhabitants, 6 to 150 times higher than any other rich country (higher than India, Barbados, China, Chile, Bulgaria, Moldova etc.). Any insights on that? Are American wives the most shrew-like ones? Should be send our criminals to learn from Yakuza and Cosa Nostra, that we can stop dodging their corpses littering our streets (again, an American is 12 times more likely to be murdered than a Japanese- Japanese criminals being politer and Japanese women more selective, I guess )

“I don’t support murders. I support people’s right to defend themselves, from both crime and tyranny.”

Tell me when it starts working, will you? Quoting Ronald Reagan about economic promises from liberals: “Well, now, if government planning and welfare had the answer—and they’ve had almost 30 years of it—shouldn’t we expect government to read the score to us once in a while?” We lead the developed world in violent crime. If guns are the solution-and we have had centuries of that (albeit limited to white males, at first)- why is America one of the most violent countries on Earth?

Your persecution complex is revealing. Did anyone say you’re not allowed to complain about crime? Think a little, Daniel. This web site isn’t some public square where you have full 1A freedom of speech rights; this is a personal blog where I don’t have to allow anyone to say anything. Yet even though I disagree with almost everything you say, I’m not stopping you from complaining, am I?

You have no ability whatsoever to argue logically. Your attempt to paint my comments as blaming rape victims for being raped are pathetic. I’m not saying the deaths of criminals distort our crime stats. I’m saying many murder victims are criminals who died as a result of their lifestyles, not innocent people. We lose about 30,000 people per year to gun violence. About 20,000 are suicides, which in general are no danger to the public. Of the remaining 10,000, a large percentage are either targeted domestic violence murders or criminals being killed by criminals. Those aren’t dangers to the public at large either.

This is the last time I’ll say this, since you’re apparently incapable of understanding it anyway: I don’t support murders. I support people’s right to defend themselves, from both crime and tyranny.

Keep quoting the bible, Daniel. It’s easier than making logical arguments.

“Are you locked up in your house, cowering behind cover because of all the gunfire on the streets? Or do you live your life like everyone else, go where you want to go, do what you like to do, without getting shot? The vast majority of the murders you’re talking about are targeted; criminals killing criminals, and domestic abusers killing their partners. Those murders do not increase the chances that Joe Regular Guy will be shot down in the street.”

Wow, we really have lots of criminals, don’t we? Just their dead distort our homicide statistics! Twelve times more murders to inhabitant than Japan! It must be the water or Obama (or Bush). Maybe, we don’t have many criminals, ours are just clumsier than their European counterparts. By the way, we lead the rich countries in rapes, but I am sure the victims (like the murdered) asked for that, too. Self-defense, like Coke, is it! Be it far from me mentioning your cavalier attitute toward rampant (according to you, enough to distort our homicide statistics) domestic abuse leading to deaths. I can see why the Bible bothers you.
By the way, my Brazilian cousins (and their South African, Colombian and Venezuelan friends) live (or try to live) normal lives (despite knowing they live in a very violent country), but, to their credit, if someone tried to tell them clumsy criminals are the reason their country violence statistics seem so awful, there would be a fresh addition to those very statistics. Apparently, what you are saying is that, unless I am forced to play Anne Frank and hide in my basement, I have no business at all being sorry about the suffering and deaths of my own countrymen. Well, I am not allowed to complain about economic mismanagement, government waste, unemployment statistics and financial fraud because I am not starving. right? As a matter of fact, since most Soviet citizens survived Stalin and most Germans survived Hitler, no one is allowed to complain about anything (with the sole exception of gun lobbyists, they have the God-given right to complain about the country with the most permissive guns legislation in the civilized world)

“”If you think passing gun control laws will reduce gun crime, you don’t know criminals very well. Do you think they’ll all turn in their guns?”

At least, they will stop getting new ones-to your consternation, I fear. Their supply will dry up. When the police seizes a gun, it will not be immediately replaced by a newer, shinier, better gun.

“It’s forever, for the time when it’s needed. I’ve had car insurance for the last ten years, even though my last wreck was ten years ago. Should I stop carrying insurance?”

No, I said no mission our soldiers were assigned since WW II was relevant to America’s safety. You were boasting about your actions in defense of American citizens’ lives-while defending the killing of thousands of innocent American citizens every year-, I thought I should put in perspective the real usefulness to American citizens of the missions our uniformed men have been assigned since WW II. You were the one who changed subjects, I just followed your lead. As an aside, the WW I veterans (including one Adolf Hitler) in the Nazi movement could-with much more reason than you can-make the same point and play the same card: they had (in WW I) done more than their enemies to protect Germany. Ready to give them “carte blanche”?

“The 2A wasn’t written for the time period between 1945 and 2013.”

As I pointed out, the 2A was written to further American defense (as the words “well-regulated militia” and “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” bear witness). American military doctrine has had nothing to do with guerrillas since the Secession War days. It means only professional soldiers, under specific orders emanated from the command chain, have undeniable legal right to bear guns. The Founding Fathers went out of their way to state the reasons they were givig (white, male) Americans the right to bear guns. that is, muskets, not Kalashnikovs and Magnums. By the way, why not nuclear weapons? They are every bit as “arms” as any other “arm” the Founding Father also didn’t have in mind because they (the guns, not the Founding Fathers) had not been invented yet. The Founding Fathers stated as clearly as possible that ” to bear guns” is not one of the unalienable rights they were standing for, it was a practical military matter. I also must point out that our boys had much more problems with Iraqis’ guns than Saddam ever had in more than 20 years (so much for guns as tools against despotism). I also must point out to those who say dictators tend to take away their subjects’ guns (Saddam hadn’t) that, if permissive guns laws were an antidote to despotism, the aforementioned dictators wouldn’t be in power in first place, not to say be able of taking away other people’s guns.

“I’m sure you simply cherish our troops and hold them blameless for all the horrible violence you accuse me of supporting. Well, check this out: our troops went to war to defend our nation and Constitution. That means they defended the 2A that you hate so much. Too bad for you. The 2A is part of the USC and Bill of Rights.
If you don’t like it, go right ahead and advocate total overthrow of our government. Tell people how much you want to alter the Bill of (unalienable) rights.”

I hadn’t figured out unalienable rights are stated like the alleged unalienable right to keep arms is. You mean, if I were to state your unalienable right to keep your money, I should write something in this vein, “Chris keeping his money being essential to him giving it to me tomorrow, his right to keep his money shall not be infringed.” Wow, as unalienable as unalienable goes, I see. Seriously, would an “unalienable right” be preceded by such a mundane justification as the one our Founding Fathers advanced?

“And lo, tens of millions of good guys owned guns and never committed a single crime. But yea, those who hate the Bill of Rights blamed them for crimes committed by criminals. And God wept over the pure stupidity of their argument.” – Chris 5:17″

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8

“Now, I consider overall violent crime a somewhat more important statistic because I believe in living in a voluntary society.”
I see, the murdered ones voluntered to be disposed of… Are fewer wedgies (the definition of “violent crime” comprehends everything from “boys will be boys” fist-fights to armed robbery to torture to rape to murder, some of those things being much more important than others) more important than being four to twelve times more likely to be murdered by your own countrymen? Are you really saying human life is not important? By the way, America leads in rapes too, roughly the same numbers as UK minus Scotland- which sports much less frequent occurrences-, higher numbers than any comparable country.But maybe America doesn’t lead the world in nasty words, paper cuts and wedgies, I really don’t know.
Must I point out to you that when you are robbed , unfair and traumatic as it may be, you lose something, but, when you are killed, your beloved beings lose much more and you lose everything you had, everything you have, everything you could ever come to have-your past, your present and your earthly future? I don’t kow how to break the news, but you can’t take your money with you to the next life! Maybe it will lead you to some insights of your own concerning the seriousness of wedgies and paper cuts compared to homicides
“You understand by attempting to deny the ordinary citizen’s right to purchase weapons — BECAUSE of mass school shooters…”
Not only mass shooters-and you know that, even if you have elected to obfuscate the point- homicides, commited by the very people gun lobbyists enable-are much more common in American than mass shootings and are much more common in American than in ANY comparable coutry.
Small amount of firearm, LARGE in violent crime, Or really any other European country with anti-gun legislation in place — They all have -much- higher violent crime statistics.”
I got it, poor British, they are much, much less likely to be murdered or have their children murdered by their own countrymen… My heart goes out to them. What about the Germans, the Scandinavians, the French, the Japanese, the damn Indians, virtually all citizens of any civilized country? I still wait for an aswer. Are those European and Asian “socialist” Welfare States so great that human nature itself has changed and their citizens lost the urge to kill and rape their fellow countrymen? I am still waiting for a coherent answer: If not the generous supply of tools of evil, then why are Americans so keen on killing and raping their neighbors? Are we all a race of savages? Is the water we drink, the air we breathe? Don’t we value human life as much as snobbish Frenchmen, Hindu Indians and Shintoist Japanese do?
“I’m going to go ahead and cut you off there. If you aren’t even disputing the accuracy of the information then why would you call it a lie, if nothing else than to sling mud and attempt to call me a liar? ”
You and I know it is an implied lie. You were trying to compare America with countries facing civil wars and state collapse. You are trying to compare apples to oranges, I insist, why American homicides statistics are the outlier among the rich countries which share with us religious and moral roots, not to say outlook? But you can keep comparing American citizens to Colombian narcoterrorists if you will, you don’t have much of a choice if you are to keep pretending American homicide statistics are not shameful and not a predictable consequence of America’s permissive guns legislation.
“Once again, if you’re unarmed and unable to defend yourself, and your family, then you are helpless. You call it a lie yet refuse to address the underlying problem.”
The underlying problem is, the people you keep shilling for keep selling guns to the very people who keep killing thousands of innocent civilian Americans year after year. Let me say it again, we lose every year much more civilians on our own streets than we lost battle-hardned voluntary professional soldiers in Iraq in ten yeans fighting a treacherous, barbaric, relentless and armed (as an aside, all those guns did nothing to overthrown Saddam, but are being a good help to keep Iraqis killing each other- so much for the “guns will protect us from our own goverment crowd”) foe. The second problem (yours, not mine) is, countries with strict guns legislations have much, much less violent crime (defined as “things that really matter”) than America! Again, why? As H.G. Wells would say, “Aren’t we men?” Or as Shakespeare would have said, “O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, and men have lost their reason.”

Gosh Daniel, where do I begin?

Are you locked up in your house, cowering behind cover because of all the gunfire on the streets? Or do you live your life like everyone else, go where you want to go, do what you like to do, without getting shot? The vast majority of the murders you’re talking about are targeted; criminals killing criminals, and domestic abusers killing their partners. Those murders do not increase the chances that Joe Regular Guy will be shot down in the street.

Your comment about “no government since ww2 has been tyrannical” is true and pointless. The 2A wasn’t written for the time period between 1945 and 2013. It’s forever, for the time when it’s needed. I’ve had car insurance for the last ten years, even though my last wreck was ten years ago. Should I stop carrying insurance?

By the way, we didn’t wreck anything in the Balkans. I lived there for 18 months. All that slaughter wasn’t because of anything we did.

I’m sure you simply cherish our troops and hold them blameless for all the horrible violence you accuse me of supporting. Well, check this out: our troops went to war to defend our nation and Constitution. That means they defended the 2A that you hate so much. Too bad for you. The 2A is part of the USC and Bill of Rights. If you don’t like it, go right ahead and advocate total overthrow of our government. Tell people how much you want to alter the Bill of (unalienable) rights.

If you think passing gun control laws will reduce gun crime, you don’t know criminals very well. Do you think they’ll all turn in their guns?

And yeah, keep throwing biblical quotes at me. That really highlights the logic of your argument.

“And lo, tens of millions of good guys owned guns and never committed a single crime. But yea, those who hate the Bill of Rights blamed them for crimes committed by criminals. And God wept over the pure stupidity of their argument.” – Chris 5:17